Description: We're ending the year with a look at December 17th. Since 2003, the date has been recognized in the sex worker community as International Day to End Violence Against Sex Workers.
Started by Annie Sprinkle, Robin Few and organizers with the Sex Workers outreach project s a way to memorialize the victims of a serial killer who targeted sex workers in Seattle, it has grown as community call to action with observances in over 60 cities worldwide:
Annie sent us one of her writings on concieving the action. rewire.news/article/2008/12/08/…gainst-prostitutes/
Interviews with:
Kate D'Adamo - twitter.com/KateDAdamo
Savannah Sly - twitter.com/SavannahSly
Suprihmbe - twitter.com/thotscholar, patreon.com/thotscholar
To see a list of names of sex workers murdered around the world in 2018 and/or find an event near you, visit www.December17.org
More show notes to follow!
Want to get in touch with the On The Dresser team? Send us your questions, comments, suggestions or signal boosts to onthedresser@gmail.com or find us on Twitter @Onthedresser!
Visit our website at www.onthedresserpodcast.com
Production team:
Dr. Vanessa Carlisle (twitter.com/vcarlisle)
Lauren Kiley (twitter.com/xoxolaurenkiley)
Danny Cruz (twitter.com/adannyboy)
Sex. Queers. Politics. You'll find all of it On the Dresser!
Transcription by: Cheryl Green
TRANSCRIPT:
[chill music]
DANNY: Welcome to On The Dresser: sex, queers, politics. What's on your dresser? Our conversations are led by sex workers, queer people, and sex educators. We call what we do edutitillation. We use explicit language and discuss topics that may not be a good fit for all listeners, but if you like honest, frank talk about gender, sexuality, and bodies, if you know it's all political but not always sure what to do about it, we're here for you. I'm Danny Cruz.
VANESSA: And I'm Vanessa Carlisle. Later on, you'll also be hearing from Lauren Kiley. We're closing out 2018 with our first new episode after taking a hiatus, and we're really looking forward to growing with you in 2019.
This episode of On The Dresser is about December 17th, the International Day to End Violence Against Sex Workers. The content of this show deals directly with violence, murder, rape, and other horrible crimes. In the first half of the show, we will be discussing the names of some of the victims of this violence, and in the second half of the show, we're focusing more on organized response. Because this episode deals directly with the issue of violence, we wanted to make sure to give you a content warning at the beginning.
DANNY: In the 1980s and into the early 90s, Gary Ridgway murdered as many as 90 women in Seattle, Washington. In New York about the same time, Joel Rifkin killed 17 women. The victims of both of these men were mostly sex workers. Joel Rifkin was apprehended in 1983, Ridgway in 2001. After Ridgway's confession got him a plea bargain in 2003, sex worker and rights activist Annie Sprinkle organized a vigil to memorialize his victims and call attention to the violence that sex workers face in their daily lives.
VANESSA: I'm gonna read you a couple of paragraphs that Annie sent us from her writings on conceiving the action, and we'll post a link to the full text in our show notes. So, the quote begins, "Many of us sex workers are out and proud and spend a lot of time trying to explain to the public that we freely choose our work, and we are not victims. But the truth is some of us have been or will become real victims of rape, robbery, and horrendous crimes." So, Annie contacted Robyn Few, one of the founders of the Sex Workers Outreach Project based in San Francisco. And Annie says, "We invited people everywhere to conduct memorials and vigils in their countries and cities. Anyone can choose a place and time to gather, invite others to gather, and share their stories, writings, thoughts, poems and memories of victims, related news, and performances. You can read names of those who've been murdered, or people can do something personal alone at home such as lighting a candle or taking a ritual memorial bath. We encourage discussions among friends by email, on blogs." That's the end of Annie's quote.
DANNY: Stacey Swimme, another organizer at the time, summed up best by saying, "We wanted everyone in the world to know that because of the criminalization of prostitution, it took 23 years to convict a man of killing at least 48 women." The vigils Annie organized for Ridgway's victims were held on December 17th. And 2006, December 17th, organizers in New York and New Jersey called on police to step up their investigation into a serial killer targeting sex workers in Atlantic City and implement a moratorium on arrest of sex workers to encourage cooperation with the police. That moratorium was never implemented, and the killer remains at large. That same year, organizers in the town of Suffolk in the UK mourned the names of five women who were killed by a serial killer who targeted sex workers.
[recorded clip of protest leader yelling into bullhorn followed by the crowd repeating the line] Sex work is work!
VANESSA: In 2007, Canadian towns began to organize these vigils in response to the conviction of Robert Pickton who confessed to murdering 49 women, most of them sex workers from the downtown Eastside of Vancouver.
DANNY: This year will mark the 16th International Day to End Violence Against Sex Workers. Once again, news of serial killers will underscored the observances. Back in September, U.S. Customs and Border Patrol agent Juan David Ortiz murdered Melissa Ramirez, Claudine Ann Luera, Guiselda Alicia Hernandez Cantu, Nikki Enríquez Ortiz after picking them up on a well-known [unclear] in Laredo, Texas. Ortiz was caught after he picked up a fifth woman who knew the previous victims. According to news reports, he began to act shifty and violent when she brought up the death of her friend, Melissa. She managed to escape and alert law enforcement. On December 5th, a grand jury indicted Ortiz on four counts of capital murder. Although he confessed to the crimes, prosecutors announced that they will seek death penalty in his case. This affords him the right to a full trial.
VANESSA: There's not that much that separates Gary Ridgway and Juan David Ortiz. Ridgway famously said in his confessions, "I picked prostitutes as victims because they were easy to pick up without being noticed. I picked prostitutes because I thought I could kill as many of them as I wanted without getting caught." Ortiz saw the killings as "a community service." At a press conference, Webb County District Attorney Isidro Alaniz said, "The scheme in this case, from Ortiz's own words, was to clean up the streets of Laredo by targeting this community of individuals who he perceived to be disposable, that no one would miss, and that he did not give value to."
DANNY: By 2015, the official December 17th website December17.org showed events in 60 cities scheduled worldwide. As of this recording, there are 38 cities, with more being added daily. Some observances won't be full public vigils but gatherings of friends, colleagues, and family members who will share space in intimate gatherings to mark the day.
VANESSA: In this episode of On The Dresser intend to highlight the many ways sex workers organize while living under threat of violence and to honor the experiences of our communities as we support each other and build up our strength for resistance.
DANNY: We reached out to three sex workers' rights activists in the U.S. who've organized various events. First, Vanessa Carlisle talked with a representative from the Sex Workers Outreach Project Los Angeles about their event this year.
LAUREN [SWOP-:LA]: Hi, I'm Lauren. I'm a Ph.D. student at USC, and I am also a member of SWOP-Los Angeles.
VANESSA: Great. And are you helping to coordinate the December 17th event that SWOP is hosting?
LAUREN: Yes, I am. I'm helping to run a Vision Quilt workshop at the event.
VANESSA: What is a Vision Quilt?
LAUREN: A Vision Quilt is an organization started by a woman named Cathy DeForest, and it's based on the idea of the AIDS quilt. And it tries to get people to imagine a world without gun violence and how they can get there through creating art. I thought that because so many sex workers are lost to gun violence every year, this would be a really relevant thing for a community to do on December 17th. Of all of the ways that sex workers have died this year, by far, gun violence has been the number one way that sex workers have died. I think it's an important thing for us to do.
VANESSA: And how can people get involved?
LAUREN: Well, they can just come to the event, actually. So, it's at the East Los Angeles Women's Center, on December 17th obviously, from 5:00 to 9:00. So, we're gonna do a workshop, we're going to have a vigil and read the names, we're also gonna have some gluten-free and vegan food.
VANESSA: Thank you for chatting with me, and I'll see you on the 17th.
LAUREN: All right. See you then.
DANNY: From L.A. to Seattle now, I caught up with Savannah Sly about what's happening there.
SAVANNAH: So, my name is Savannah Sly, and I'm a sex worker. And I've been involved in the Sex Workers Outreach Project for about five or six years. I've been heavily involved as a core organizer for the local chapter and have also served on the board of the national SWOP-USA organization.
DANNY: There's an impressive list coming out of Seattle. Tell us about all the events that are going on.
SAVANNAH: Yeah! So, we've got a lot of events coming up. And usually we like to do series of events quarterly around various sex worker days of observance. So, this is our December 17th series of events, and we're kicking it off today with a panel. And it's going to feature the voices of queer trans people of color who are in the sex trade. Part of our goal with SWOP-Seattle is to create platforms for people to speak from. And we're especially excited about this panel not only because of the content and who's speaking but because it's being cosponsored by two City of Seattle commissions: the commission for LGBTQ and disability issues. So, it feels amazing to get that underwriting of legitimacy from a civic entity, and they're also fiscally sponsoring the events so that all of the speakers are paid. And it's happening at City Hall, so they were able to sponsor us getting a venue at City Hall. So, it feels really legitimizing.
DANNY: Yeah. In researching December 17th I've noticed that there's very few examples of that. Like the only one I found was David Grosso introducing a proclamation in D.C. City Hall. So, to have this in Seattle is kind of big.
SAVANNAH: Yeah, we've been working really hard for the past six years to forge relationships with elected officials, including City Council members and people at the Statehouse, as well as we have some academics from UW who are really helping to put this together, making relationships with people who are on these commissions who advise the mayor. So, it's been a long time coming, but it's really starting to pay off. We were feeling some change. And one reason we've been working so hard at this is because Seattle has been a site city for end demand, and we feel that Seattle has a lot of blood on its hands when it comes to SESTA and FOSTA. And so, we feel that this is a place where we have to start reversing this narrative and these policies.
DANNY: Yeah, the SESTA-FOSTA impact is gonna be a big part of December 17th, I feel, this year. You talked about organizing this for the last six years, this journey to getting the city's recognition. What barriers have local organizers faced in the past when trying to get this legitimacy for December 17th or even have it recognized?
SAVANNAH: There's a couple of things, and something that relates directly to the panel tonight is it's really hard to create— We talked about creating platforms, and there's a lot that goes into that in terms of trying to make those platforms as safe as we can. That said, it's never really safe for a sex worker to come out in public and identify themselves, especially if they have layered identities that cause other challenges or forms of discrimination in their life. So, that's been a barrier just community organizing and trying to get people from the community to feel safe and comfortable enough or to see the value in speaking with public officials either privately, behind closed doors or in public. So, we've been putting a lot of work into that, and we really applaud everybody in our community who's brave enough to step forward. It's a big deal.
And the second thing I would say is the goddamn trafficking narrative, which is so simplistic and black and white and which conflate sex work as trafficking.
DANNY: Yeah. What is it about this date do you think that has been like a big mobilizer? I feel like of all the days that sex workers observes, this one gets a kind of attention. What is it about this vigil that you think reaches out to people?
SAVANNAH: I think that everybody understands, regardless of how you feel about prostitution—whether it should be decriminalized or abolished or whatever—regardless how you feel about prostitution, everybody can agree that sex workers face overwhelming amounts of violence due to stigma and due to the fact that we have little legal recourse, and we are living on the fringes of society. We're easy targets for serial killer misogynists and people who just want to do harm. And I think that everybody understands that reality.
So, we have people coming out who are sex workers who want to gather to remember people from our own community and to hold space for each other. We have people who are family members of sex workers who want to remember people that have passed away in their family. We have lots of allies, and we have what I would call casual allies who show up: people don't necessarily understand the issue of sex worker rights, but they respect that sex workers are gathering in community to honor their dead, and they wanna be a part of that and to help hold space for that. So, actually yeah, in Seattle it's always a pretty momentous occasion for us because December 17th was started to acknowledge the victims of the Green River Killer who killed dozens and dozens and dozens of people, up to around 90, and the vast majority of them were sex workers. And we have people in our community who met him and fortunately did not go with him. So, yeah, I think it's just a very relatable day, and it happens just a month after TDOR. And we acknowledge that there's a lot of crossover in the list of names, you know. So, I think people also understand that it's an intersectional day of remembrance and that it's not just about sex work. It's about a lot of things.
DANNY: As an ending, do you have any other thoughts, ideas, or things you would like to put out to our listeners about December 17th organizing?
SAVANNAH: Just that December 17th organizing can be really hard. It's my least favorite thing that I do with SWOP because it hurts. It's incredibly upsetting. It makes me, I feel fear in my body for myself and for everybody that I know and love, just knowing that this is such a staggering reality for us. And so, this year for December 17th with SWOP, we actually decided to not do our public march mostly because it just felt stressful, and it's a community day. And so, we're putting more time into just having our community memorial and being together. And public education be damned because that's what we as organizers actually need to get through this day more fully intact emotionally. So, I encourage people to take that space to do whatever feels is most in service to your community and yourselves on this day.
DANNY: Savannah Sly, the former president of SWOP-USA, thank you for talking to On The Dresser. I appreciate it.
SAVANNAH: Thank you, Danny! And thank you for this podcast. I love it.
DANNY: Finally to the East Coast. Lauren Kiley got an interview with Kate D'Adamo about her experiences with organizing.
LAUREN KILEY: We are talking to Kate D'Adamo, a sex worker organizer. And so, we've been talking about December 17th and what it means and sort of what it's like as a sex worker to go through that kind of day. Can you tell me a bit about your past December 17th experiences?
KATE: So, I was an organizer with SWOP-NYC and SWANK for a number of years. And through that organization we, every single year, you know, December 17th was a really important day, and it was something where no matter what was going on in the community, no matter what was going on in the chapter, everyone knew that this was a moment to pause and to try to come together. And the range of events that happened really looked incredibly different in the years that I was in New York. When I first started going, it was there was a part that was outside that was freezing.
LAUREN: [laughs]
KATE: We stopped doing that. And then it was in a church, a small church—MCC—that was on the edge of Manhattan. And then it moved to a different church after that and had a very different vibe to it. And after that, it moved to more community-based spaces and really kind of shifted the tone and explore a lot of different things around what it means to have a day really talking about ending violence and a day where you know that that's the day that people across the world are sitting and thinking about not just about the experiences of violence, but also thinking about healing, Thinking about remembering other folks in our community, and thinking about coming together and what resilience really means.
And so, it was always a really weighty experience to sit and just have to meditate on those things because for the obvious reasons, you have to look back at the year that you've had. You have to look back at the people that you've lost. You have to look at what violence has meant for you over that year. And you know, we very often focus on those we've lost, but it also makes you think about the ways that you experience violence across the spectrum, whether it's physical violence or sexual violence or the ways that we experience institutional violence. And so, there's a lot to hold on that day.
LAUREN: And was there anything in those events that went particularly right? Was there one detail or moment that was really strong that you think would be good to sort of replicate in the future?
KATE: I think one of the most impactful things that happened—a number of years it happened—but it was the building of an altar, which was a really, is a really another communal experience that I think is so beautiful. And the one that I remember the most was we kind of built the shelf and altar first, and it included a list of names, candles, a number of different mementos. And we invited people to bring things to add to the altar, and so it became this thing that in the middle of— That year we had a number of different speakers. It was in a very beautiful church. There was a lot of new faces. There was a lot of familiar faces there. But you know, I think for me, I get lost in logistics sometimes.
LAUREN: [chuckles]
KATE: That's my coping [inaudible] a lot. So, getting wrapped up in the details, making sure everything is where it needs to be, for me, that's often a part of December 17th. And so, it was really incredible to, at the end of the night you know, to know the altar that we had started with and to be able to sit with the altar we ended with I think, was for me, it was incredibly powerful. And it really, it's a moment that I still think about, and I still look back to.
LAUREN: It's not new to organizing to have the vigil as also a moment of resistance. How do you see the connection between those?
KATE: You know, I think resistance and resilience comes from so many different places. I think it primarily comes from community and the recognition of what that community does when it comes together and the power that that holds. I think that you're right. You know, this is not a unique thing to have a day once a year to sit and remember and to mourn and to grieve. I think it's so powerful for a community that has been so actively erased and whose active erasure facilitates violence. And so, December 17th is not just about remembering those we've lost and saying, "You are not lost; you're still part of our community," it's also about saying, "We are here, and you cannot erase us. And even in death, we still continue to be part of this community."
And I think that the other thing about it that I think makes it so interesting, and this really hit me one year, is the remembering of names. Names are so complicated and especially when you have these like multiple layers of identity and these ways that you have to, even if [sighs] even if you get to live very much into this experience of sex work, often you still have to hide it in other parts.
LAUREN: Correct me if I'm wrong, but you've been part of the team that's worked on compiling that list before, right?
KATE: Yeah.
LAUREN: What is that task like for you?
KATE: I know that they do it slightly differently every year. The people that are putting it together have their own strategies, and so I think it was a double-edged sword. You know, it is really, really hard to have that information and to actively have to search for it. To think about it every single day for a period of time means that every single day, you are reminded about the level of violence that people are facing. And definitely for folks who are engaged in the work, it can be so triggering and so hard to actively seek out stories and find details that remind you of your life. That is really scary.
LAUREN: This is a question I don't expect you to have the answer to because I think a lot of us have been searching for years: how can we compile this list in a way that doesn't hurt so damn much for everyone involved?
KATE: You know, so, this is the other part of what doing that meant, was that I reached out, I basically sent an email to every single organization in the global network of Sex Worker Projects. And and I asked them about the people in their communities. And when we set up a Google alert, very often we get mired in the details of death. And when I reached out to organizations and said you know, "Who have you lost this year? Send a picture. Send a blurb. Talk about them. You remember them so much in life." And so, I got back pictures and I got back stories and I got back details about the way that people were being remembered, and none of it had to do.... That's not true. Some of it, they really wanted to share, you know? There was one story about a woman who had been refused medical care, and that's how she passed away. They really wanted that as part of her story, and it was really important. And so, it was part of the story that was told. And for the most part it was— But even in those stories, it was really balanced against remembering that person in life.
And I think that December 17th is about ending violence, and yes, we need to talk about violence. We need to talk about the sex workers that died because they were incarcerated and didn't get treatment while they were overdosing and passed away. That is an experience of violence and state violence that is so common and gets really forgotten when everyone is focused on what happens when a client gets violent? And it is just as worthy to remember on that day and to talk about. And as a community, we also need to look at that day, and if we're gonna remember people, their lives mattered so much more than the details of their death.
LAUREN: For sex workers who aren't able to get to an event near them or don't feel comfortable going out or are simply not out, do you have any tips for not feeling totally isolated and erased on a day when so much of even our intercommunity media is overloaded with trauma and violence?
KATE: Yeah. I think taking it as a day of self-care is gonna be different for everyone. And for some people, going to an event is just not the way that they would find, where they would find healing. And so, resilience begins by building the resilience in yourself. Activism is a part of that. But being able to get up the next day and get out of bed is the very core of being able to be resilient as a community. And so, if you can't access a December 17the event, try to have that experience, and try to have that moment of acknowledgement and mourning in the way that feels right for you. There's so many events happening.
Reading through the names by yourself, going online and just looking at what is happening around the world is an incredible thing. There's so many different spaces where you can read first-person accounts of people who are trading sex. There's podcasts now! Hearing a voice is a really big thing. And hearing a voice talking about experiences that you've had and sharing space with you, even if it's this kind of ephemeral space, is really meaningful. And so, if the way that you find healing is community, being in a community space and meditating on your own stuff, going to a church and lighting a candle is valid. That's still you sitting with people who wanna sit next to you, and everyone is having their own experience whether or not they know what day it is. And so, find that space where you can heal, you can remember that resilience can only happen if you are taking care of yourself too.
LAUREN: That was so beautiful. Thank you. What are you doing for December 17th this year?
KATE: I'm so thrilled that I get to go to a December 17th event this year. Last year I was in a city that didn't have one. And so, I'm gonna go to my local December 17th event with a local SWOP chapter that I've just started. I just moved, so I am excited to get back to organizing and to get back to these incredible communal spaces. And yeah, thrilled to be around some really beautiful people to have a really incredible shared experience this year.
LAUREN: Well, great. Thank you so much for your time, and we loved hearing from you.
KATE: It's great to talk to you. Mwah.
[chill music break]
DANNY: We have the full interviews with Savannah Sly and Kate D'Adamo coming soon. Make sure and subscribe to On The Dresser to get the latest.
VANESSA: There's so many ways to recognize, participate, and organize around December 17th. We've just heard three, but there's dozens and dozens of them going on. And sometimes people wanna be part of something big, and sometimes that's not appealing. Sometimes that doesn't feel safe or doesn't feel appropriate to the feelings of the day. So, what do you do if you're not a rally or a vigil type? What do you do if you have less access to a group? What do you do if you can't show up for any other reason? There's just lots of ways to mark the event. And so, Lauren caught up with suprihmbé, who is @thotscholar on Twitter and had a conversation about other ways to mark December 17th.
LAUREN: We are so, so excited to have suprihmbé, who you might also recognize by their Twitter handle, @thotscholar. Past listeners have definitely heard us cite your work, specifically on our Velvet Color episode that highlighted queer and sex worker writing. Welcome to On The Dresser!
SUPRIHMBÉ: I'm excited. I'm always nervous to do recorded stuff or whatever, interviews, but I'm here.
LAUREN: [chuckles] When we started asking people what they were doing this year for December 17th, we were very thrilled to hear that you are releasing a book of queer fantasy poetry?!
SUPRIHMBÉ: Yes. That just kind of happened because I'm not really good at working on one project at a time.
LAUREN: Yeah, 'cause you have another book coming out too, right?
SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah, I have one that's supposed to come out in the spring. And that's like my main project, and that's what I've been campaigning for. But then I was writing this poetry because I went through a couple of breakups this year and a lot of different stuff, self-discovery stuff. So, I wrote some poetry, and I was gonna put it in my main book, which is Heaux Thots Compendium. But, I decide my, well I'm saying I decided, but my editor decided that it would be better to take the poetry out and to stop trying to put everything in one book. Oh yeah.
LAUREN: What is this? Does it have a title yet? Do you know how we can get our hands on it?
SUPRIHMBÉ: Yes. It's called Libra Season. I'm not gonna completely disclose why 'cause it's related to a few people I've dated. But I love Libras. Let that be said. Most of my favorite people in real life are Libras. We get along super well most of the time. But it's really hard when you get on a Libra's bad side. They're really mean. So!
LAUREN: [laughs]
SUPRIHMBÉ: The poetry book though, it's not out yet. It will be out December 17th. Right now, I'm running a GoFundMe for it. It's gofundme.com/libraseasonwinterfun.
LAUREN: So, my next question is why queer fantasy poetry on December 17th?
SUPRIHMBÉ: Some of it is about, is related to sex work, and I'm a sex worker. December 17th is one of our holidays.
LAUREN: Definitely the saddest one.
SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah. And I wanted to do something a little more I don't wanna stay upbeat because it's not upbeat. But it seems like it is because it's fantasy, and it kind of takes you on a little journey. And I just love fantasy, and it just ended up that way. I wrote one poem called A Day In a Dragon when I was really like in the thick of grieving over losing this person that I recently lost. And I was really sad, so I wrote that off the top of my head. And then I just kept writing after that. I don't know where the dragon thing came from, but I like fantasy, so.
LAUREN: I also love fantasy. And as a reader, I was super excited because December 17th is traditionally very heavy and hard to get through. And I can't think of anything that would make me, as a sex worker feel better than queer fantasy poetry, so.
SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah. I hope people like it, and I hope people read it. [laughs]
LAUREN: So, a lot of your writing has been very personal and bringing narrative not just from your own life but from specific narratives of sex workers. How has that been playing to audiences? Like do you have different kinds of interactions with your readers across platforms or across genres, like your essays compared to your poetry?
SUPRIHMBÉ: I feel like— You know, 'cause I just got started back into poetry, and you know, like some people they are like titled poets, you know?
LAUREN: Mmhmm.
SUPRIHMBÉ: I'm not, so I don't think a lot of people are paying too much attention to it, but. Because my platform, I'm mainly on Twitter, and my platform is really heavily political and personal at the same time. But it's all really related to sex work, even my parenting things, because it affects my life so much.
LAUREN: And so, have you ever participated in December 17th, like in a collective or personal way before?
SUPRIHMBÉ: I usually just participate online with the rest of the community. But this year I wanted to do the book. I originally wanted to drop Heaux Thots Compendium, but sometimes projects like that, they just need a little more work. And I didn't wanna put it out, rush and put it out and it be bad. So, yeah, normally I just make threads on Twitter and try to do little things for myself, try to remember people we've lost, all of that.
LAUREN: Mmhmm. So, what has the experience of December 17th been like through online community and Twitter threads? Like have you felt supported?
SUPRIHMBÉ: I mean I feel supported by others sex workers.
BOTH: [chuckle]
LAUREN: That's good.
SUPRIHMBÉ: But the larger, wider community, there's certain Black women and women of color who are very supportive. I've experienced a lot of harassment, a lot of anger harassment from cisgender Black women, so I don't really, their support is kind of like, when they're not sex workers, it's just kind of uhh. But yeah, I feel supported by the people who are close to me in that community online.
LAUREN: That's good.
SUPRIHMBÉ: It's just kind of a sad day in general, especially when you think of like on that day, we see a lot about Black trans women being murdered, queer people who engage in sex work being murdered, you know what I'm saying. We see a lot of that, and it's just kind of a day of remembrance.
LAUREN: In your scholarship and your writing, you talk about proheaux womanism. How are those theories being connected to the sort of realities of organizing? Are there any other sort of connecting theory to praxis connections?
SUPRIHMBÉ: I think of things that we do, especially things like heaux stroll or writing books or helping other sex workers that we know in real life or online. I think of all of that as sort of an expression of what I call proheaux womanism. Basically, all proheaux womanism for me is a womanism that centers sex workers. I haven't seen a lot of womanist work that centers sex workers or is pro—not necessarily pro sex work—but is I guess what some people will call sex radical. Basically like not anti-prostitution, not anti-porn, but not necessarily pro-sex work as far as like the empowerment thing that it kind of implies.
LAUREN: Mmhmm. Yeah.
SUPRIHMBÉ: I just finished an article that I was mentioned in, and there was another sex worker who was actually approached by the people who wrote the article, and I'm sure was it was nonblack sex worker because what she said was that like Ashley Judd had made some anti-prostitution comments and whatever, and she's not really well-versed on our politics. Which you could tell by how she was talking. But one thing that stood out to me in this response was that they said you know, well, it only leaves room or gives room for the narratives of victims of trafficking or victims of poverty but doesn't leave enough room for people like I guess "regular people." They didn't say regular people, but I'm saying that 'cause that's what I feel like it means. It doesn't leave room for sex workers who love their job but sometimes it's hard. And I think that's kind of, that's exactly like the kind of sentiment that I kind of wanna get away from with proheaux womanism. Because the idea that.... I think it's the phrasing that really bothers me because there isn't a lot of room given for victims of poverty.
LAUREN: Yeah. I'm sorry. If I understood what you just said, someone was making the argument that sex workers who are relatively content and not struggling financially are under-represented?
SUPRIHMBÉ: Yes.
LAUREN: [chortles]
SUPRIHMBÉ: I'll read the actual quote to you because I feel like I kind of messed it up. But this was her response to Ashley Judd. She said that her name is @BrookeBrou. That's her handle. She said that, "Sex work is undeniably a complex structure much like any job in history." And then she said that, "Ashley Judd's position only allows for people who are victims of trafficking or were victims of poverty to share stories of assault. It doesn't allow for sex workers to say they still love doing sex work but sometimes a job can be tough or complicated, but most of the time it's great." And I agree with most of what she said. But...
LAUREN: It's not wrong.
SUPRIHMBÉ: ...there's not room on either side are victims of poverty to share their stories.
LAUREN: Yeah. [sighs] I feel like I've heard variations of that argument for way too long, and I think there's probably a past version of myself that made that argument. And it's especially, I mean compared to Ashley Judd supposed or alleged anti-trafficking work, you're right in that it doesn't leave room, but it also automatically centers the people who don't need the centering and are in the least need of the resources.
SUPRIHMBÉ: Right. And it's hard to catch that if you're not really in that position or have never been. It's really hard to like catch that in the language because it almost looks like she's just correcting her, which she probably thinks she's doing. But the reality is that like the reason that the anti-sex work and anti-porn coalitions or whatever are able to grab these people who are victims of trafficking or victims of poverty, the reason they're able to kinda grab them is the same reason that some religions and cults are able to grab certain people: because they're vulnerable. And the fact of the matter is, is that there's no room for victims of trafficking or poverty to share stories of assault anywhere without it being skewed to, without them being silenced, because it's not empowering, or it being skewed to serve anti-porn and anti-sex work agendas. Like there's no room on either side. So, for people to say, "Well, there's no room for people who love doing sex work," there's definitely room for those people because feminism is where they're at.
LAUREN: [laughs] Yeah. It is. There's plenty of room, and we're having brunches.
SUPRIHMBÉ: Yeah, so that's my thing with proheaux womanism and why I felt like it was necessary, even if some people may feel like it's not. You know, people have opinions. But that sentiment is one of the reasons why I was like, there's a lot of discourse and there's a lot of people who are being erased.
LAUREN: Well, you're also asking people to re-center off of themselves, and that's largely an uncomfortable process.
SUPRIHMBÉ: Right.
LAUREN: What is the best way for people to find you and support you?
SUPRIHMBÉ: You can find me on Twitter all the time @thotscholar. And then I have a patreon. It's Patreon.com/thotscholar, and I put a lot of my writing there these days. That's paying me rent, and I really need that, so. [laughs] I think all of our harassers and bullies online forget that we have bills every month 'cause every time a sex worker posts a cash link,[laughs] somebody has a problem with it.
LAUREN: Thank you again so much for being on the show. And we would love to have you back at some point. Good luck with the book, and good luck with everything.
SUPRIHMBÉ: Thank you.
[chill music break]
DANNY: Those are some really good tips we heard from Thot Scholar and Lauren in that piece. I, last year, wasn't able to get to an actual organized event, so I was driving on my way from Portland to California. I didn't know how to memorialize it, so I called up Cris Sardina from the Desiree Alliance, and we just had a conversation. Told her I loved her, spoke some things, and it actually made me feel really good on the day.
VANESSA: All three of us have experience as participants and as organizers of December 17th events. And it does feel like our collective experience with this event is pretty deep. We have a lot of breadth, and we have a lot of depth with that experience. So, I'd love to just open up a little bit of space for us to think through and remember some of what we've seen and experienced with December 17th: some favorites, some problems.
DANNY: My first year in Los Angeles, I moved in October and decided that that would be my kind of way of engaging a community that I was having a hard time finding, was to organize a December 17th vigil. We did it in West Hollywood at Plummer Park. And so, for a while I put up flyers around the neighborhood in Hollywood outside of hotels and the LGBT Center. I was trying to be strategic about it. I did a lot of social media outreach, sent a lot of emails. And on the day, got to the park, and we were told that there was a possibility that we would have to shut it down because we were using candles. And I was told that the park manager was really strict in that it might be something that we'd have to shut down, so we should do it quickly was the advice that was given. You know, we set everything up. People came around, and as we were greeting people, I got to meet that park manager and kind of explained to her what we were doing using the vague terminology that sometimes sex worker organizers can do in the face of an authority figure. I was telling her that we were having a vigil for people in the sex trade who are victims of violence.
And she stopped, and she said you know, "Actually, you should go ahead. This is something that I think needs to to be memorialized." And she gave us the go ahead, and at at the time, it was one of those like only in West Hollywood would I get that OK. But I did really also feel like no, people are listening. It's not just all resistance that we're gonna get for for mourning our own. You know, we're gonna get support from people, and you never know where that's gonna come from. And so, it was really special for me on that day to get that little bit of support when I was preparing my body to be kicked out, to have resistance.
LAUREN: For people who may not be as familiar with LA or West Hollywood specifically, that's a park that is familiar with sex work and sex workers, particularly queer and trans sex work and sex workers. And I think it's really important that it's not the only vigil that we've had at Plummer Park, partly for that reason. It's also been a site of violence against sex workers. And for me, some of the more public events that we've held have also held that resonance of this has been a site of violence, and we are changing what that means in some very necessary and fundamental ways.
One of my favorite December 17th memories was not coincidentally with the two of you in a different park in L.A. where we had a lot going on. it was the first time I'd organized for December 17th outside of Sex Workers Outreach Project. But that year, we had food, we had a table to write letters to incarcerated sex workers, and we had a self-defense workshop. And that was one of the years that, as hard as this day is, that I remember feeling like we really had something concrete to offer each other and offer our community as the way of this is our response to this day. This is our response to this immense amount of violence. This is a specific way we can protect each other and look out for each other and teach each other.
And one of the most surreal moments of my life as an activist was when we were standing in a big circle reading the names, and three policemen on horseback sort of surrounded us. And some people stayed in the moment and were still reading the names and just looking inward. I know some of us were making eye contact with each other and watching out. They were reading the signs. We had decorated the space with "Sex work is real work. No bad whores, just bad laws," sort of our slogans. And there were the cops staring at us and watching this on horseback, and we weren't gonna interrupt what we were doing. And they didn't interrupt what we were doing, and nothing happened. But that presence was felt, and that was a very strange, tense moment. But also felt really good to be standing in a circle, holding everyone's hand and knowing that there wasn't, in the face of all of this death and all this violence, we were there for each other. And we were there for each other in the face of the police showing up in the middle of that. And that one will always probably stick out in my mind.
VANESSA: Yeah, that was a really memorable event for me too, and I agree, and I feel you on the self-defense. I mean it's part of my sense of purpose now in a big way. And that I remember that workshop, meeting Nina Hartley and having Nina Hartley, who I consider to be like a generation ahead, right, a person who has forged a path, who has created space for what I try to do. Like I consider her a mentor in a professional sense and how humbling and how important it was for me to have Nina Hartley let me grab her wrist and work with her on a wrist escape. And she just looked at me and was like, "I need this." And I remember that feeling of like, yeah, OK. If we are to respond to violence, one of the ways we need to respond to violence is by taking more power back, more responsibility for our own physical safety, and taking our power back. That event really mattered, mattered for me.
And it also was just us, and that's something that I think about with December 17th how I want it to be a space where sex workers feel safe. And oftentimes sex workers mostly feel safe around other sex workers, like fact. But also I want it to be a time of education and a time of outreach and a time of coordination and collaboration with other organizations. And I'm remembering the December 17th that happened directly after the evacuation of Occupy Los Angeles. So, I got out of jail on December 3rd, and the December 17th gathering was on the steps of City Hall, riding the momentum of the Occupy L.A. movement. We were still having General Assemblies at that time. We were still, you know, people were still— I mean there were still some momentum around Occupy. And I—
LAUREN: That was also in the pouring rain. I remember that vividly.
VANESSA: [laughs] I remember it being gloomy, so that makes sense. [laughs] I mean it can be a dark event, right? It's a vigil. It's a recognition of violence. It's a recognition of murder. That is actually what we're doing is standing in a circle talking about people in our communities who have been killed. So, I have a very strong memory of disappointment in the turnout because Occupy L.A. had had this incredible turnout two weeks earlier for the evacuation of the camps. You know, 1,000 people had showed up for the night that the camp was getting evacuated. And I had this sense of there being people out there who cared, who could show up for stuff that they wanted to. And here we were doing something that was so personal, so intimate, and so painful, and they weren't there, you know. A few of them came: people who I was close to personally, maybe. People who you were close to personally. So, there was a sense of like our immediate close allies showed, but organizationally, we were not supported. And I was early enough in my experience organizing that I was shocked by this. I'm no longer shocked by it. I can still feel disappointment. I can still feel difficulty and frustration, but it really, it was a real shocker for me. I was just like, how could they not?! How could they not? How could they not?
So, you know, when I think about what these events are and what they do and what they mean, they're simultaneously very intimate, very personal to our communities. And then there are also these opportunities where we're looking around going like, OK, we've been hurt as a community. Who has our back? And the answer of who has our back and who doesn't feels really poignant on December 17th.
LAUREN: And also for me it feels like a very short list. The people who have our back feels like the people we are already intimately close to, organizationally or otherwise.
VANESSA: Yeah. I think that's changing, and I think the organizing that's happening now does sort of expand our reach and expand some of what the meaning of December 17th is. I think people are organizing events now that have collaboration and community crossover.
LAUREN: It has been a day where, through the sorrow and pain and sheer fucking rage at this, what we face and what our communities face and what we go through, there is also a day when people do show up and do come together and in a myriad of different ways. And I have to find some hope and joy in that. Otherwise we wouldn't do it. Otherwise we wouldn't do this every year.
DANNY: Yeah, I feel like December 17th, is one of those that is the day that gets the most exposure of all the days that sex workers observe. And a lot of that comes from, I think, the way that sex workers first get attracted to the rights movement is through some kind of trauma, myself included. My kind of propulsion into interest in sex worker rights was because of a trauma I faced and mine being getting fired from a job. Others being arrested, others being having a friend or family member or someone they know experience violence or experience violence themselves. Like this day is a concrete way for that connection to happen.
LAUREN: Mmhmm.
VANESSA: I love that point. I think that's really important. And when you have communities that come together through trauma, you know, it's a very difficult balance between acknowledging and healing that trauma and also not being defined by it and not having it be the only thing that binds you, right?
DANNY: Right.
VANESSA: So, the organizing that's happening now, I think, is seeking to create more content around who we are and what we're facing and also what we're trying to do.
[chill music]
Yeah, it seems like the most important part of any of these actions is to connect, just to connect with other sex workers who are still fucking here, you know? [chuckles] And to remember that we do have a resilient community, that we do have a community that's full of mutual aid and care for each other, and that we that we can show up for each other even when we're not all in the same city together.
If you are interested in joining with a December 17th event, they're happening all over. You can check December 17.org for a listing of events. Oh, you could also just Google it. See if something else pops up, you know, if you're not sure. And members of On The Dresser will be available that day on Twitter. We're gonna be documenting what we're doing, what we're seeing, and also just being available for conversation. So, if you'd like to interact with me, I'm Vanessa Carlisle, and on Twitter I am @VCarlisle.
DANNY: Yeah, I'll be there also participating in the discussions. We will be tweeting under our personal accounts. Mine is @aDannyBoy, Danny Boy with the letter A front of it. We'll be also tweeting under our @onthedresser account.
VANESSA: We'll also be releasing the full interviews with organizers that you heard speaking today if you're interested to hear more about their work and what's going on.
DANNY: On The Dresser is produced by me, Danny Cruz, Lauren Kiley...
VANESSA: And me, Dr. Vanessa Carlisle. Music for this episode by Lou Gomez with a special outro by Copyslut. Go find them on YouTube [COPYSLUT] and listen to the full version of Hooker Homecoming. It's beautiful.
DANNY: You can find past episodes of On The Dresser on Soundcloud, Google Play, Stitcher Radio, and Apple podcasts. While you're there, please rate, review, and and subscribe. It really helps a lot.
VANESSA: If you'd like to support this grassroots volunteer effort in queer sex worker media, head over to on thedresserpodcast.com and hit our donate button. We don't wanna volunteer forever! You can also shoot us an email at onthedresser@gmail or protonmail.com. Stay safe on December 17th everyone, and we'll see you next time.
All power to the people.
DANNY: All pleasure to the people.
BOTH: Good night and good fuck!
[Hooker Homecoming plays]